RAM Arrived

I believe I mentioned that I had trouble with the G.Skill 2133 RAM I had ordered to go with my Kaveri build, and ended up putting my old G.Skill RAM in temporarily.  Well, I decided to spend a little extra for the "name", and bought 16 GB of Kingston 1866 Predator RAM.

Shut down, replaced the RAM modules, booted and she came up and recognized the most optimized settings for the sticks and away we go!  System has been stable for several days now, even running a bit overclocked.  I did not like the price tag on the Kingston RAM, and despite the fact that I know the actual memory is sourced and other brands use it as well, you still seem to get what you pay for at times.  The sticks are solidly built with a dissipator that feels like a block of steel.  The are a little tall, but no problem with my liquid CPU cooler.

So, as I said, system has been stable (no crashes whatsoever) for the past couple of days now and I will report about performance and such off and on...

Kaveri Update

Been a week!  I am running a lightly overclocked A10-7850K setup.  I have had crashing issues so updated drivers and BIOS, still had issues... looks like my RAM could possibly be going (old RAM, I had to send the original set I ordered back because it did not work) so I ordered a new set yesterday.  We shall see if this is some sort of MB or CPU issue.

Oddly, since I placed the order for the new RAM my system hasn't had a single hiccup.  I am running her at 4.0 GHZ and she has been running smooth as butter.

I DID download and install the latest version of A-Tuning and through it, modified the FAN algorithms.  I have the fans running a little more aggressively.

Tonight I should try running CIV V again because it seems to be able to crash my system easily and frequently.

As far as performance goes... I can play my games with little or no noticeable difference to my old setup, despite having fewer cores running at a slower speed than my FX-8350 (again, this is running at a light overclock of +400 MHZ).  Compilation of large Java programs runs barely 1/2 second to 3/4 second behind, and the startup process of a large, JBoss website has similar results.

I am pleased with the performance of this chip.  I really think future revisions will only get better, and perhaps faster clock speeds will be released as the production processes improve.

Still the reason for going with this chip is the PROMISE of excellent performance using the proper development APIs / techniques.  I am hoping developers, even just a few, will embrace this direction and show off the strong points of this APU.

I still go back and forth in my head as to whether I made the right decision to go with the FM2+ APU instead of simply sticking with the AM3+ platform and simply purchasing a revved up Piledriver CPU.  I think I did.  While in many respects the A10 series are somewhat limited, they do contain a much improved core in regards to execution, and the built in memory and data sharing with the processor cores and the graphic cores is a welcomed advancement.  I am not entirely thrilled with the motherboard I chose but I think I can live with it and I believe any of its shortcomings are BIOS related, not construction related, as many of the components are obviously very good.

Perhaps the build decision that I might come to either love the most or regret the most was the purchase of 2 discrete graphics cards running in Crossfire, vs. a single, more powerful card.  The crossfire decision limited the amount of VRAM I could have, and that could affect performance in a negative way in many games.  On the other hand, the processing power of the two cards is immense, surpassing the highest end graphics cards.  Time will tell.

A10-7850K Build Review

Summary

I received my components from Newegg on Monday and spent a few hours putting it all together.  I basically gutted my current build, removing the motherboard and CPU, RAM and graphics card and replaced them with my new components.

1 ASRock FM2A88X Extreme6+

2 SAPPHIRE R9 270X 2GB Toxic

1 AMD A10-7850K Kaveri

G.SKILL Sniper Gaming Series 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133 (PC3 17000)

Trouble

Believe it or not it worked as easily as I had hoped (or so it seemed).  I slapped it all together, turned her on and she booted up!  I immediately applied the BIOS patch to bring the UEFI BIOS up to version 2.40 which is designed to make optimal use of Kaveri.  Rebooted and viola!  Windows installed a few additional components (AMD / ATI drivers for the graphics cards) and I was up and running.

Soon thereafter I noticed that my RAM was running at 1600 speeds!  I booted into BIOS and selected one of the available XMP pre-configurations for this RAM and restarted.  Nothing.  ERROR 50.  (That's a RAM error from the motherboard).  I double checked the Asrock website and this RAM is supported.  I tried a gain.  ERROR 50... reseated the RAM, same thing.  I tried MANUALLY entering the timings, same thing.

I spent a lot of time trying to reconfigure the RAM and having to continually resetting the CMOS by using a pit that was wedged between the two graphics cards.  NOTE to Asrock, move the pin!  Every time I had to remove one graphics card, then replace it.

Finally I simply gave up.  I pulled the 1866 RAM from my old build and used that.  Booted, and that RAM came up running exactly as it should.  So I entered an RMA for the new RAM, which Newegg immediately accepted.  I've never had a problem with G.Skill before so this was a surprise.  Also, I requested a refund instead of a replacement.  I will do some more research first.  But I should note that the XMP timings and the timings listed on the packaging did not match what CPU-Z was telling me that the RAM was capable of.  So I am not sure what was going on there.

Gaming

My comments on performance will be somewhat anecdotal since all kinds of data is already available out there.  My old system was an FX-8350 build on ASUS motherboard.  (By the way, I do prefer Asus over Asrock and to some degree regret not going with another Asus motherboard).

First I ran Skyrim.  I could really tell no difference between running it on my old build (which was a FX-8350 build) and this one.  I did, however, encounter a crash after playing for a mere 5 or 10 minutes.  My game is loaded with high resolution textures and these new cards have only 2 GB of VRAM as opposed to my old beast that had 4 GB.  I think that really makes a difference and I might have to back out some of the textures.  OR it could be that the CrossfireX cards caused the issue.  I don't really know.  I will try some more tonight and maybe back out some of the textures to see what happens.

Next I ran Civilization V.  Again, no problems, ran fine for quite awhile.  And again, I could not see any difference in the gaming experience.

I will try Torchlight 2 tonight.

I do want to note that these Toxic R9 270X cards are QUIET.  I have to admit, having owned AMD graphics cards in the past, that I was surprised!  They've done an amazing job.

Everyday Use

This will take some time to assess, but I can tell you right now that the APU is generally slower.  Applications start a little bit more slowly, web pages load just a bit slower.  Nothing is painfully slow, mind you... and I expect things to get better as drivers, bios, application and windows updates come along that make better use of the new architecture.

I have noticed that with my H60 the APU has not yet climbed above 42 C.  I ran folding at home all night and that was what it peaked out at.  So far this build is silent and gaming capable.  I would like to do some more tests that I have done in the past (software builds and such) but I am unable to at the moment due to networking issues (nothing to do with the new build).  Below are some images regarding the new build:

Update On Performance

Performance is not as bad as I expected.  I did several startup runs of our work website (development mode) and it starts in about 13.8 seconds.  That is VERY similar to the FX-8350 I was running (maybe off by .5 to .9 second), and about 2 to 2.5 seconds slower than an older model quad core i7.  There is some minor variance depending on network traffic and background applications.

Compilation seems to be slower but not by much.  Similar to the previous test, compilation was only off by a few seconds.  1:16 for the A10 versus 1:12 for the FX.  My i7 2600K used to finish in just under 1 minute.

More gaming updates... Skyrim suffered frequent crashes.  After turning off some special effects mods for lighting I was able to play through 2 levels.  It does seem to suffer from jitters a little more than my previous build but I am inclined to believe that has more to do with the fact I am running in crossfire.  I also have not figured out how to properly limit FPS with the catalyst control center (I thought I figured it out but using it caused even more crashes in Skyrim) so I need to use MSI Afterburner.  Torchlight II played just fine... no noticeable difference from my previous build.

I just downloaded my free copy of Battlefield 4.  Time to take it for a spin.  It doesn't play at all... all sorts of bad things happen.  Not sure why just yet.

Civilization V has caused me some headaches.  My CPU is running on average between 10 C. and 12 C. for temperatures.  Under somewhat heavy load it might pop up to around 27 C.  The H60 seems to be doing its job.  But when I play a large (LARGE or bigger) map with more civilizations and city states, I've walked away from the game somewhere around the 1800's and come back to a frozen computer... which, when restarted (and this is after full power down and restart) yields a CPU temp of 47 C.  Now why that is surprising is because a DIFFERENT program used to record temps indicates on average that my CPU is running around 38 C.  That makes more sense to me.  Now add 35 to that... you end up with a whopping 72 C!!  So, no wonder it is seizing up.

-------------------

After updating from BIOS version 2.40 to 2.70 it might be my imagination (as I have not done any more tests since I just did the update tonight, 1/24) but I swear the entire system is snappier and smoother in general.  Odd.

Apologies...

My blogs are really just for me.  What I mean is, I write them for myself but I don't mind if other people see and / or comment on them.  I'm mentioning this because I just went back and reviewed all the comments people have ever made on my web log and discovered a few I never saw... and just now answered.

So, if you [reader] ever comment on my blog and I don't respond for a year or two, please don't take offense, I never even bother to check to see if I have any comments!

Meanwhile, my Kaveri build components are on their way.  Could possible be here tomorrow, if not, then on Monday.

Evolution of my computer...

When I built my current machine I did so safe in the knowledge that there would be an upgrade path; I counted on that when I made my choices.  It seems that my upgrade path has fallen by the wayside and won't be happening within the next two years - if at all.

So I made a decision, one that also might nip me in the behind in a year or two but we shall see.  I wanted to stay with AMD and since the AM3+ platform has fallen by the wayside, my only option was to pursue the FM2+ platform if I wanted to delve into Steamroller (3rd gen AMD CPU core architecture).  So this is what I am doing.

There are a lot of debates as to whether or not FM2+ will continue past next year as well, but AMD has said it would and that Excavator (the next generation CPU architecture... or should I say the FINAL version of the current series of architectural changes to AMDs CPU lineup) WOULD support FM2+... so that means FM2+ should be around another 3 years, minimum.  At that point it will be getting VERY old and lacking in features.  Also, AMD has said something in the past then changed direction and recanted (prime example being the situation I am in right now).

So, pursuant to my previous statement, I placed an order for the components I would need to build this FM2+ / Kaveri machine out.  I have a fine case and power supply, and I don't need to worry about my disk drives, all fairly new components.  But to make this work I would need the CPU (of course), a new motherboard, memory to go with that motherboard (2133 as opposed to the 1866 I currently have) and while I was at it I decided to go with a new graphics card setup.  My current build components can be handed down to my children.

Ahhhh!  Why a discrete graphic card?  Isn't Kaveri supposed to excel without?  It does, but not enough for the kind of gaming I tend to do.  So, while my GTX 770 is a wonderful card, I decided to go with something new and exciting (at least to me):  I purchased TWO R9 270X (Sapphire Toxic) cards and will run them together.  Theoretically they put out more performance than almost any other SINGLE high-end graphics card available... epic performance in some cases... and cheaper too!

Based on everything I've seen I can absolutely expect (at least at first) to see some performance hits in day to day activities where software is unable to take advantage of the Kaveri architecture for OpenCL and HSA... mostly because my current CPU has 8 cores and the extra level 3 cache was designed for desktop use.  Even so, I don't expect the perceived slow downs to be drastic and most often probably not noticeable.  Where software DOES take advantage of the AMD architecture, I suspect the speed ups WILL be noticeable.

Well, I know I am in for a bumpy ride getting set up.  The motherboard will post with the new CPU but will require a BIOS update immediately to really make use of the CPU and its features.  I am hoping I won't have to reinstall Windows... by uninstalling my current graphic drivers and having my Windows 8 disk on hand, I HOPE Windows will start to boot and complain and ask for a "repair disk" or the installation disk.  If it does I will be golden.  If it doesn't... well... oh well I have to reinstall a bunch of applications.

Anyway, I will post a new blog once I get set up.

Kaveri A10-7850K - Why I like AMD CPUs

I'm a person who has had all kind of hardware over the years running a wide variety of operating systems.  I like to think every hardware type, every operating system has something that makes it unique or worth using.  That may or may not always be true, but that is my mindset.

I think that many hardware and gaming enthusiasts are very down on AMD because of the products they have released over the past 2 or 3 years.  They feel "let down" because of performance issues that have plagued the new (young) architecture that AMD is pursuing.

I had been (primarily) an Intel CPU enthusiast for many years and despite a foray into AMD with a Phenom, I remained convinced that Intel had it right and they were going to continue to dominate and eradicate all other CPU designers / manufacturers.  A little extreme, I know.  But when AMD began talking about "Bulldozer" and the new architecture I became intrigued.  Still, it was NEW and had not been tested so I held off and stayed with Intel.  I was, in fact, glad that I did because the performance levels of Bulldozer were a step backward as far as practical applications go.  Despite that I held onto the idea of the direction CPUs were heading in regards to distributing processing over more threads and when Piledriver arrived I took the plunge.

But I did so KNOWING that Piledriver would give way to Steamroller, and then to Excavator.  But it hasn't.  Instead AMD ran into manufacturing issues (moving from 32nm to 28nm die) and partway through decided to restructure and refocus.  My AM3+ platform suddenly became obsolete.  I wasn't very happy about THAT but I STILL held out hope... and I am glad that I did.

Tomorrow the FM2+ based A10-7850K APU (more on that later) will be released for sale and I plan on continuing with AMD.  When AMD started releasing figures for the new CPU people became excited with some of the numbers being bandied about.  Then CES arrived, no new data, but several companies that had the APUs in hand ran some test and posted the results and ... ffffzzzzzzzzzzzzttttttttttttt.  The results were terrible.  At first glance the new APUs seemed slower than the previous models they were replacing.  People began ranting and raving and complaining and swearing and... well you get the picture.  The internet was awash with nay-sayers.  That has changed today, as other groups have run (and leaked) more extensive and impressive tests indicating that yes, Kaveri is better.  Some of the figures appear identical to "Richland" (the APU predecessor) but Kaveri is underclocked... that is, it runs at around 400Mhz slower than Richland.  Even running slower, the vast majority of tests have proven out that it is indeed faster than its predecessor and in some cases blows it away.  Even compared to an Intel i3 with a discrete graphics card, it wins.

That leads me to what an "APU" is.  It stands for "Accelerated Processing Unit".  What it is, is a combination of CPU cores and "next generation" GPU cores that are linked by special memory and other architectural mechanics allowing processing to be off-loaded (in some cases) to the GPU when it is not being used.  Effectively, instead of having 4 CPU cores and 8 GPU cores you have a combination of 12 cores capable of sharing on-die memory and instructions.  AMD has also produced APIs and drivers that will take advantage of their HSA compliant CPU/GPU sharing.  This allows the APU to provide exceptional graphics performance (without a discrete graphics card) and also to perform a wide variety of computational algorithms that take advantage of the combination of processing units.  If that wasn't enough, they've added sound preprocessing... it provides very good 3D sound to the user (sort of like surround sound, but not really... it manages the sound to produce a very realistic surge and fade depending on how the sound would effectively move around the user).

AMD has taken what started as a very promising (if not implemented well the first time around) idea and forged into something that could very well drive the industry in new directions.

For my part, I plan on building out an FM2+ system, which is risky since FM2+ is already becoming an old architecture and while AMD claims Excavator will be backward compatible, I have to think it very well might NOT be since Intel is quickly advancing the motherboard chipsets to be able to handle the ever increasing bandwidth and speed of PCI, SATA, USB and other bus technologies, especially memory bus technology.  So AMD will HAVE to address a new bus architecture and soon if it wants to continue to compete and enjoy any amount of success (and I do believe they will as this APU, while well hyped, seems to be the "real deal" offering very good performance at a decent price).

Going back to my own hardware preferences over the years (as opposed to operating systems) I did have one that thrilled me and that was the Amiga PC.  Amiga understood YEARS ago that off-loading functions from the CPU allowed them to split processing and allow chips that specialized to do a far better job than the CPU alone could have done.  In a way that is where CPU/GPU/APUs are headed now... but instead of divvying up the processing they are recombining various types of processing units into a single die, all of them able to quickly and efficiently communicate with one another, off-loading math, sound and graphic processing to improve speed and efficiency.

It's an idea that worked well for Amiga, implemented in a far more efficient and powerful way.

To me these are exciting times.